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This cartoon explifies the

This cartoon explifies the absurdity of those that want to prevent gay people from getting married. Like it will somehow drop the divorce rate and lower the amount of infedility, fighting and all the other B.S, bitterness and misery that goes along with marriage if gay people aren't allowed to get married.

I mean what trip are those people on, they think that "Ozzie and Harriet" is somehow an accurate portrayel of American domestic life and they can somehow make it that way with the law, give me a break. There trying to defend a fantasy out of the 50's that never existed, that is what pisses me the most off about them, there trying to protect some fantasy of a perfect American Nuclear family that was never perfect.

Let the gays get married, let them know my parents bitterness and misery. All marriages could end in divorce right now and no one would be worse off.

i think that we should just

i think that we should just let gay people get married. What effect would it have on strait people anyways?

Equal protection under the

Equal protection under the law. Must be a new idea.
Rosebud

The people (and religious

The people (and religious entities, like the Mormon Church) behind Prop 8 are the same kind of people who opposed desegregation and other newfangled ideas, like the concept that the Founding Fathers actually MEANT it when they said "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." They are more interested in their cheery-picked understanding of the Bible than with actual ethics.

Aquitaine's picture

>>Do you want these

>>Do you want these things...?

I want human rights for minorities kept OUT of the voting booth. Any minority trying to establish these kinds of equal rights under the law, will find that goal infinitely harder to achive by using a popular vote. That is why such issues must be settled in the courts, by those who truely understand the dangers of a society that limits the human rights of any minority, even (and especially) when the voting majority wills it so. The ACLU and other groups understand this very well, and have been leading such legal actions for many years now. I would encourage anyone who feels strongly about this issue to support your local ACLU and other worthy LGBT legal support groups, and get this before the courts where it belongs.

ChampionOfTheOmnivores's picture

> That is why such issues

> That is why such issues must be settled in the courts...

The system you're proposing is called a 'judicial oligarchy'. It has been tried many times throughout history; it has failed equally many times. It is unashamedly rooted in the belief that the masses are too stupid to know any better and a judicial ruling council is needed to ensure 'fair and equitable treatment' for everyone.

Fortunately, at least 54 percent of the Californian people do know what's best for them. I find it frightening that at least part of the remaining 46 percent feel so strongly about the issue that they would be willing to give up their democratic rights to support it. And make no mistake: backing a lobbyist engine such as the ACLU in the hopes that the court system can mandate 'tolerance and equality' despite the will of the people is a complete subversion of the democratic process.

A subdued 'congratulations' to Californians for passing 'prop 8'. You've bought yourselves a few short years of reprieve before Aquitaine's lobbyist engine bulldozers through a mandated celebration of the gay lifestyle.

And to those who would worship the courts: don't be surprised when the monster you've sacrificed so much to enthrall shortly returns the favour.

"A man will fight harder for his interests than for his rights."
- Napoleon

- COTO

The system you are

The system you are advocating is called "tyranny of the majority." It is widely held to have certain drawbacks.

In California it takes a two-thirds vote of the legislature to pass the state budget and a two-thirds vote of the electorate to levy taxes, but only a simple majority of the electorate to amend the constitution -- even if the amendment would deprive people of their rights.

Given a choice, I'd prefer judicial oligarchy to such outright lunacy; the average judge is smarter than the average voter, and can be expected to think more deeply about the issue at hand (and I've spoken with enough average voters to know what I'm talking about, and I'm not just disparaging those who disagreed with me; a fair number weren't even sure what a "yes" vote on Prop. 8 meant). Also, the "oligarchy" is not absolute; California voters confirm and end judges' appointments both through their elected representatives and directly.

I am hoping the courts will overturn Prop. 8 (as they did Prop. 14 (1963)). If they don't, no minority's rights will be safe.

No one is going to force anyone to "celebrate the gay lifestyle"; only to respect the rights of their gay and lesbian fellow-citizens.

Lest you jump to the wrong conclusion: I'm a heterosexual father of two, 26 years into my first marriage. I would gain nothing from the defeat or overturn of Proposition 8 but the satisfaction of living in a more just society.

ChampionOfTheOmnivores's picture

> The system you are

> The system you are advocating is called "tyranny of the majority." It is widely held to have certain drawbacks.

It is also widely believed to be better than any of the terrible alternatives, a judicial oligarchy being one of them.

One person. One vote. Majority rule. It's a horribly flawed system. But it's the best humankind will ever do on our own. I needn't remind you of Mr. Churchill's ubiquitous quote.

> the average judge is smarter than the average voter

'Smart' has nothing to do with it. Morality and intelligence have a zero point zero correlation.

A judge's intelligence may grant him/her the ability to accurately predict 0.01% of the ramifications of a landmark court decision. For the average dumb voter, the value is around 0.003%. (Scientifically proven. ;)

Personally, I'm willing to forego the 0.007% 'predictive capacity bonus' to keep decision-making in the hands of the masses.

> Also, the "oligarchy" is not absolute; California voters confirm and end judges' appointments both through their elected representatives and directly.

And so your argument is that an oligarchy will be fine because the people that are 'too stupid to rule themselves' are on the selection/oversight committee?

> If they don't, no minority's rights will be safe.

If they do, nobody's rights will be safe, minority or otherwise.

> No one is going to force anyone to "celebrate the gay lifestyle"; only to respect the rights of their gay and lesbian fellow-citizens.

It will be a mandated celebration of the gay lifestyle.

Don't believe me? Come to my current home in Toronto, Canada, at the bottom of the slippery slope that doesn't exist.

You'll find such attractions as lobbyist pressures for 'minimum LGBT content' laws, kangaroo-court trials for 'hate crimes' stemming from actions such as condemning homosexuality in church, 'alternative lifestyle education' for children as young as 6/7 (grades 1 and 2), and more in-your-face gay bars, gay parades, gay protests, gay appreciation days, gay this, gay that than you can shake a stick at.

I kid you not when I say that (if the Canadian equivalent of the lobbyist engines you revere succeed in their goal), by this time next year I will be eligible for hate crime prosecution by posting this message to Mr. Fiore's site. Not a word of a lie. It's that bad here.

And so I say again: it will be a mandated celebration of the gay lifestyle.

> I would gain nothing from the defeat or overturn of Proposition 8 but the satisfaction of living in a more just society.

One that won't be around for much longer.

Regards,

COTO

[The system you're proposing

[The system you're proposing is called a 'judicial oligarchy'. It has been tried many times throughout history; it has failed equally many times. It is unashamedly rooted in the belief that the masses are too stupid to know any better and a judicial ruling council is needed to ensure 'fair and equitable treatment' for everyone.]

Absolutely--nothing but an abject failure. People forget what a good thing it was that ultimately they let the masses, not the courts, have the final say on things like desegregation and other issues which simply would not have been popular with the courts at the time.

Oh wait, I accidentally got "the masses" mixed up with "the courts". My bad.

ChampionOfTheOmnivores's picture

Between the

Between the double-negatives, the sarcasm, and the twist ending, I think you're trying to say that the courts saved America from desegregation.

Only they didn't. The vast majority of African Americans, according to your own census department, are still concentrated in a handful of 'black-only' urban ghettos in cities such as New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles. The fruits of legal desegregation such as the racism-of-low-expectations 'affirmative action' have been instrumental in perpetuating racist beliefs and stoking the fires of racial tension.

Furthermore, you'll note that the courts have also sanctioned various 'resegregation' movements at the behest of African American lobbyist engines that insist "black kids" should be taught "black history" in school. Legal engines such as the NAACP have long been recognized breeding grounds for malcontent ideologues that leverage hatred into political power. Find me one sane person that thinks Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are positive examples of social change brought about by lobbyists, and I'll concede the argument.

Discrimination ends when the hearts and the minds of the people are moved not to discriminate, and not because the courts mandate it. And for religious conservatives, there is a tremendous difference between the issue of race and the issue of homosexuality. The Bible condemns homosexuality as it condemns racism. C.M. Siff was right to call open acceptance of homosexuality 'the harbinger of society's end'.

As for desegregation: I'm an engineer. If I designed and built a desegregation machine that functioned as poorly as the one engineered by the U.S. courts, I'd never be hired again. I'd probably be sued. By any objective standard, the machine is an abject failure. It was the hearts and minds of the U.S. democratic majority that elected Mr. Obama into the office of the President; the courts had nothing to do with it.

- COTO

>It is unashamedly rooted in

>It is unashamedly rooted in the belief that the masses are too stupid to know any better and a judicial ruling council is needed to ensure 'fair and equitable treatment' for everyone.

You mean, like the Electoral College, which gave us Dubya's first term? Sure am glad they "protected" us from the results of the popular vote!

Lets take religion out of it

Lets take religion out of it for a moment and look at other aspects.
The court system cannot handle the two sex unions... let alone the same sex unions.
1. child custody for a divorce.
2. common law marriage.
3. spouse abuse.
4. tax credits and tax law.
5. inter-state marriage recognition.
6. tort protection for insurance (I do not know if insurance companies would recognize same sex unions - and if not, the torts will follow!)
7. adoption rights.
8. power of attorney.

I do not know if the original laws handled ANY of this; hence, the courts would be dictating policy. Do you want these things in the hands of one judge?

- StupidPeopleTrick

Anonymous, WTF? All of

Anonymous,

WTF? All of these things are currently handled in our legal system, and the insurance industry will recognize whatever they're told to recognize. (Or, failing that, companies marketing to same sex couples will quickly step in to meet the need.) The only potential sticking point is inter-state marriage recognition, and the U.S. Constitution requires it; it's only a matter of time before that gets settled by the Supreme Court.

For those of us against Prop 8, you have just made our point for us - there is nothing in what you have listed as obstacles that needs to be dealt with any differently than it currently is because both spouses are the same sex. You appear to believe that things like adoption rights, spousal abuse and power of attorney are somehow linked to the gender of the people involved - they aren't.

PBI
Sensen No Sen

Casey_questionmark's picture

If a marriage is legal in

If a marriage is legal in one state that union must be accepted in all other states if at least one member is from the state where the marriage took place. That has already been solved, how do you think interracial marriage ban was removed,through the court system. The president is already in place. All the things you listed would be the same as with heterosexual marriage. With the possible exception of common law marriage, I'm not sure what would happen about that.
Casey?

Howdy Casey, "If a marriage

Howdy Casey,
"If a marriage is legal in one state that union must be accepted in all other states if at least one member is from the state where the marriage took place." I am a bit confused... why then are Vegas weddings recognized then (regardless of where the people are from)? I understand that alot of people went to CA when the same sex marriage law took effect (to allow the union). So are they under the same 'Vegas' umbrella?

And to all, please do not take these posts as a troll as they are not. I am not clear by the legal aspects of all of this - and I wonder how many things have been tested in the courts (the common law thing seems to stick out the most).

- StupidPeopleTrick

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